tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387052581086893410.post4723471586584059115..comments2023-09-28T10:59:26.381+01:00Comments on Living, writing and other stuff: Guest blog - in which brother Ron considers possible candidates for the role of 'primitive writer'.Bill Kirtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07675643113010061969noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387052581086893410.post-71088633623575226452010-11-30T10:37:28.277+00:002010-11-30T10:37:28.277+00:00Maybe I muddied the waters when I spoke directly o...Maybe I muddied the waters when I spoke directly of ‘education’ without qualifying it as the formal education whose topics and parameters are laid down by administrators, bureaucrats and the like – in other words, as you say, formulae rather than rules. When the impulse is not to ‘educate’ but to make people conform, it has a repressive effect, stifling individuality, uniqueness, the unforeseen. I know and accept completely that 'life' *is* education and that there are explicit, shared social and cultural norms without which society would begin to unravel. The situation you describe – your ‘lost generation’ – is just as evident in the UK, and it’s madness to assume they can generate their own morality without some sort of guidance and without acknowledging that a healthy society demands respect for the rights and opinions of others, and therefore, respect for its ‘rules’. Remember the words of the one-time Education Secretary and arch-destroyer of all values, Margaret Thatcher: 'There is no such thing as society'.<br /><br />As Kris Kristofferson’s great lyric has it ‘Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose’.Bill Kirtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07675643113010061969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387052581086893410.post-4344860542128692022010-11-29T15:44:26.544+00:002010-11-29T15:44:26.544+00:00I could really use an edit function on the doggone...I could really use an edit function on the doggone blogs. Let's make that 'unintelligible'.Diane Nelsonhttp://www.romancingwords.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387052581086893410.post-57690339364336439062010-11-29T15:41:50.757+00:002010-11-29T15:41:50.757+00:00Here's the thing: 'life' *is* educatio...Here's the thing: 'life' *is* education. In the process of learning language, we absorb all its intrinsic rules. In addition, we learn social and cultural mores - I doubt I need to recite the litany of ways by which we, as social beings, are acculturated, socialized, tamed if you will. The rules are there. They simply are. They may vary from one culture to another but that cannot dispell the fundamental fact that we all abide by rules of one sort or another.<br /><br />That said, we can now move on to the more interesting question: are the rules sufficient to allow creativity? I think the answer is obvious. We need only look at our literary history, even a cursory examination will do. We stand on the shoulders of giants, lierary and otherwise, all who came through 'the system' - Jefferson, Adams, Twain, Williams, Mamet [fill in the blank with your own heroes, political thinkers and fiction writers alike].<br /><br />Are we confusing 'rules' with 'formula'? In this day and age, I strongly suspect it is the 'formula' and the 'gatekeepers' rather than the intrinsic rules of language or our educational system (the old style one designed to impart said rules) which are at fault. Are we barking up the wrong tree?<br /><br />Let's look at some of that 'raw' material. If you analyze it dispassionately, you will find that it has [gasp] rules! Because if it didn't, it would be unintellible gibberish. That we find it raw and creative and brash and titillating (primitive) can be only because we had a template against which to compare that 'rawness'. <br /><br />I've skirted about the issue of our educational system, which here in the US is failing miserably. The 'no child left behind' has morphed into 'every child left behind'. We no longer educate our children. We 'manage' them. We offer them a cafeteria menu and hope they choose wisely, sans guidance, sans responsibility. We espose 'freedom' and never explain what that is. We refuse to pass judgment and so deny our children the means by which to choose rationally. We place before them a cornucopia of the good, the bad and the ugly and wonder at the Columbines that occur with increasing frequency.<br /><br />We face a lost generation, one without a sense of personal responsibility. One can't even call it 'moral turpitude' for that presupposes that our children have had the rudiments, the perceptions, the RULES firmly imbedded - that the rules were known, then eschewed. <br /><br />Oh dearie me, off on a rant.<br /><br />I think the question does have an answer. Cream rises. Whether through a rigid network or through monstrous gaps in a sieve, creativity will flourish. We see it everyday on the internet.Diane Nelsonhttp://www.romancingwords.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387052581086893410.post-81616826975093021682010-11-29T08:55:46.497+00:002010-11-29T08:55:46.497+00:00Strange, I find that I agree with all your points ...Strange, I find that I agree with all your points Diane and yet, having gone through the same sort of system you describe, I still pose (with Linda) the question about whether education stole my voice. It gave me rules, it extended my vocabulary well beyond the everyday one I used but, in the process, it changed me, altered my perceptions so that I saw the world differently and therefore lost some of the primitive parts of my energy. I know it gave me an awful lot, but I know writers who've had only a sketchy formal education and whose work is powerful because of the rawness and freshness of their prose. I don't think the question has an answer.Bill Kirtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07675643113010061969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387052581086893410.post-17364920244996699372010-11-28T06:19:02.976+00:002010-11-28T06:19:02.976+00:00I grew up in a world rigidly structured, stiff, pe...I grew up in a world rigidly structured, stiff, pendantic, unforgiving of error, precise, rule-bound: parochial school in rural New Jersey in the late 50's. A system under the hegemony of Sister Agnes of Misery and Wooden Rulers. And within that structure a love of language blossomed. We studied Latin, not just the liturgy, but secular works as well. I learned to parse and train my eye and ear to the rhythms of words, singly and in groups. I learned the rules, and then I learned how to break them. The rules taught me that every word had worth and a place, a function, and that economy was good but flights of fancy could be even better. I learned that words had meanings and roots, that language is the most fundamental historical document of the human race. I learned that words could cry and grieve and giggle uncontrollably. I learned that words have secrets. <br /><br />As a former educator, I learned about the history and theories prevalent over the ages - much of it quite similar in its outlines to my own background. We claim that current practices stifle creativity, yet we graduate young adults who can neither read nor write, who are not only ignorant of the rules but are ignorant of the most fundamental modes of communication. We allow a slide into unintellible patois that changes with the vagaries of the wind, ungrounded, raw ... but creative? Debatable.<br /><br />We proclaim all to be of equal worth and deny our children the ability to judge value. We preach self-actualization yet we forget to teach youngsters how to select, analyze and apply what they've learned.<br /><br />We have forgotten to show our children that words are magic ... and that all magic has rules.Dianehttp://www.romancingwords.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387052581086893410.post-48801743592903085542010-11-27T23:37:21.300+00:002010-11-27T23:37:21.300+00:00I know woman who has hit the NYT bestseller list w...I know woman who has hit the NYT bestseller list with her suspense novels but few people know that she sold her very first book while in college. Yes, it was a romance. Yes, she was incredibly talented even then.<br /><br />On the other hand, I also believe that we adults often beat the creativity out of children by attempting to instill political correctness in them at a young age. I wonder how much of our writer's voices get beaten out of us along the way to "success" and publication...<br /><br />Ditto for others in the creative arts.LINDA FAULKNERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08059741905691302335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-387052581086893410.post-10984985416895899162010-11-27T12:19:19.498+00:002010-11-27T12:19:19.498+00:00Thanks, Ron - as stimulating and thought-provoking...Thanks, Ron - as stimulating and thought-provoking as ever. I'm in two minds about letting you get away with your claims of idleness - this is my blog and I've already made it clear that that's my default position. But maybe it's a family thing, so we'll sloth about together.<br /><br />I love the Daisy Ashford quote. I also love your remarks on her and your pupils and their 'sublime instinct about words' (great phrase). You're actually articulating something that I often ask myself or others in workshops, i.e. does education steal our voices? Does it, by stuffing us with 'rules', inhibit natural expression and tend to turn us into clones? Thinking of our own background, has climbing 'up' into the middle classes and acquiring a 'posh' vocabulary stolen some of our vitality, some of the reality of our roots? It's a big question, and it's at the heart of your musings on 'primitive writing'.Bill Kirtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07675643113010061969noreply@blogger.com